Sunday, December 14, 2008

Joel Osteen vs "Dr." Terry Watkins

An example of the judgmental, intolerant, hate-filled critiques by hell-fire and brimstone, bible-believing christians against more tolerant pastors such as Joel Osteen of Houston, Texas. Osteen's recent interview with Larry King on CNN prompted this vitriolic response by "Dr." Terry Watkins of Dial-the-Truth Ministries

6 comments:

James "Jay Arthur" Miller said...

Please don't make the mistake in believing that Dr. Terry Watkins speaks for very many of us. As a Bible believing Christian minister, and also believing that I am a rational human being, I have sent logical responses to Watkins' tirades. Generally he does not respond unless it is a canned response, and even then it is still an emotionally charged tirade that any competent Bible student can see is free of solid Biblical interpretation and/or application.

It is my belief that false teachers, inflammatory and hateful people such as Watkins are actively performing the work of Satan so that real ministers of Christ may be discredited. We are in fact called to share the truth in LOVE. This is not to say that Osteen has no issues. Personally I am not a fan. Regardless, not much tolerance should be had for willful false teachers like Watkins or Osteen.

Please consider my thoughts, and may the Lord bless you with the Truth that is His Bible.

Worship & Arts said...

Hi there. I think I can relate to Dr. Terry Watkins. I have seen things around effected by what he generally talks about. It is happening here in Malaysia. I am a musician that can play a few instruments and have such knowledge about secular and Christians music for about 30 years. I don't think Dr. Terry has personal issues on any of them, but out of his love (Christ love), he is willing to be mocked then not telling the truth. It is very biblical the way he expose unrighteous people. It is to let people know what the Bible say about these critical issues. I am a minister and need people like Dr. Terry Watkins, for information that I myself hardly have the time to do research on specific issue. I'm not saying he is the only one. I have other resources too. CCM brings more damage than helping the youth. This is not an assumption. We have over 300 churches in our organisation, and I am a youth minister, so I know what I am talking about. I was once the sound engineer for a group known as Living Praise in the US 10 year ago. We traveled all over America, and been involved in street evangelism in Dallas, Mardi Gras, and Detroit. So, I know what I've seen, heard and experienced.

One of the main problem is that the Gospel in most cases has been misinterpreted. Most people think only John 3:16, but how about verses after that? It is clearly that the truth is not what people really wanted to know.

Love of God? Yes, but how about wrath of God? Most Christians in America don't like to hear that. Try to look for the correct translation for John 3:36. This is what KJV says:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This is what Litteral Translation of the Holy Bible says:
Joh 3:36 The one believing into the Son has everlasting life; but the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

So, it is not simply believe, but obey.

The Greek words for that two places translated 'believeth' in KJV is not the same, and has different emphasis. This is how we can understand the rest of New Testament teachings, based on the four Gospel.

Jesus was harsh towards people that are hypocrites and evil. When He talks to sinners, He confronted them and ask them to repent.

Love is about to help others to repent and get their lives in line with the Bible, so they may save. Love them so much so that he hurts their feelings and help them to ignore feelings in order to have them understand the truth.

James A. Miller said...

--Hi there. I think I can relate to Dr. Terry Watkins. I have seen things around effected by what he generally talks about. It is happening here in Malaysia. I am a musician that can play a few instruments and have such knowledge about secular and Christians music for about 30 years.


Glad to hear that you're a fellow musician. Use the gift well and develop the talent that the Lord has entrusted you with so we may together glorify the Lord. :-) That being said, I'm curious what exactly you see happening in Malaysia. Is it a falling away from Christ as the Bible has taught, perhaps instead of something brought about because of a particular set of music styles? (CCM encompasses a WIDE variety of styles.)

--I don't think Dr. Terry has personal issues on any of them, but out of his love (Christ love), he is willing to be mocked then not telling the truth. It is very biblical the way he expose unrighteous people.
--

What part is Biblical? That he makes up weird, false teachings claiming that the styles of music performance that he does not like are somehow evil? That's ridiculous and immature, as well as potentially harmful coming from a man that claims to be a minister of the Lord. Nowhere does Scripture teach that a particular combination of rhythm, tempo, pitch, and duration is evil, brings about, or encourages evil actions. There is no truth in what Mr. Watkins is saying. He simply causes division to the detriment of the church through deceit. This is exactly what Satan does, as the opposer of God, the church, and suppressor of Truth.

--...I am a minister and need people like Dr. Terry Watkins, for information that I myself hardly have the time to do research on specific issue. …
--

So what you're saying is instead of being a responsible minister, undertaking the daunting task of properly interpreting the Bible, and providing clear application of it to those with whom you are in contact, you have instead decided to rely upon the junk theology of a deceitful man instead of the sound Word of the Lord? We ministers have a responsibility to use sound judgment to protect and build up the kingdom of God.

--I'm not saying he is the only one. I have other resources too.
--

Of this I have no doubt. There are many fruitcakes out there, willing to make all sorts of stupid claims to boost their own egos if they can fool someone into believing what they say has any value whatsoever.

James A. Miller said...

--CCM brings more damage than helping the youth. This is not an assumption. We have over 300 churches in our organisation, and I am a youth minister, so I know what I am talking about.
--

If you mean CCM as a type of music, it is merely a general term speaking of music that is not of an older variety, and is more culturally relevant to current trends in popular music. Note the key that all of that is RELATIVE! That means that if you exonerate and elevate music from 200 years ago as holy, someone that likes music from 225 years ago came make the same argument that Mr. Watkins has, because both are without fact, and instead based upon personal preference.

There is no point you have made thus far that is not an assumption. I for one do not care that you are a youth minister in whatever size organization. That is meaningless, but way to follow the example of your hero, “Dr. Watkins”, by trying to elevate yourself to reinforce your opinion.

--I was once the sound engineer for a group known as Living Praise in the US 10 year ago. We traveled all over America, and been involved in street evangelism in Dallas, Mardi Gras, and Detroit. So, I know what I've seen, heard and experienced.
--

So...your point is that because the group played a particular kind of music, they were not only ineffective, but evil in action despite being engaged in street evangelism in some U.S. Cities? I could understand if you made the case that some music styles will not be as effective as others to engage the local culture in theological discourse. If you wanted to go that route, I'd back you up, simply because in my experience I have seen this to be the case. I suspect I am able to substantiate this phenomenon much better than you are with your claim that “CCM is evil, and I know because I know people”. In other words, what we are dealing with is a cultural issue, not a spiritual one.

--One of the main problem is that the Gospel in most cases has been misinterpreted. Most people think only John 3:16, but how about verses after that? It is clearly that the truth is not what people really wanted to know.
--

Agreed.

--Love of God? Yes, but how about wrath of God? Most Christians in America don't like to hear that.
--

Agreed. That's closely related I believe with why we have so many false converts in the U.S.

James A. Miller said...

--Try to look for the correct translation for John 3:36. This is what KJV says:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--

First off, the KJV as a Bible translation is not perfect, and neither is any other Bible translation, though there are plenty of folks in the church that are afraid to admit that. Any serious Bible student should be able to admit as much, but also realize how very perfectly applicable the Bible is due to the fact that God has preserved its essence through the thousands of copies – with slight differences in manuscript, and mistakes in translation included – that are yet able to convey the authors' intended meaning through the process of Hermeneutics. All of that being accepted, there are more direct, and more accurate translations of the Bible than the KJV, though I use it at times for study, along with several other translations.

--This is what Litteral Translation of the Holy Bible says:
Joh 3:36 The one believing into the Son has everlasting life; but the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
So, it is not simply believe, but obey.
--

Yes....and? It's still not literally what the text says, but as close as you can get while trying to bring it fully into English.

--
The Greek words for that two places translated 'believeth' in KJV is not the same, and has different emphasis. This is how we can understand the rest of New Testament teachings, based on the four Gospel.
--

There may be 2 Greek words translated “believeth” in the KJV (I didn't check this), but there are actually 39 occurrences, not 2. Furthermore, we should never based our understand of the New Testament solely on the basis of the four Gospels, as that would not be proper Hermeneutics, or complete Bible study.

--Jesus was harsh towards people that are hypocrites and evil. When He talks to sinners, He confronted them and ask them to repent.
--

Yes, you are correct. Note that these are probably subsets though. There were/are sinners that set about to deceive, such as the Pharisees, and Jesus was quite harsh with them. Some came to repentance. Most did not. Then there were sinners that had been deceived, often by the Pharisees, and others. Any time we believe a lie, we are in danger of it coercing us into sin.

--Love is about to help others to repent and get their lives in line with the Bible, so they may save. Love them so much so that he hurts their feelings and help them to ignore feelings in order to have them understand the truth.
--

Then I hope you understand my intention to do the same with you today by showing where you have been illogical, and have made incorrect judgments about the hearts of many, including myself. I play a wide variety of music, including secular rock music, as well as CCM, and through those avenues I have been able to share the Gospel with many people. I've had the privilege of leading some to repentance. Some of them live their lives wholly devoted to the Lord. Also some that already knew the Lord but held attitudes that opposed my methods have come to realize that there are many methods to share the Gospel, in varying and relative degrees of effectiveness, but there is only 1 Gospel to share; and ours is the same. Interestingly enough, one of my former opponents is a good friend and now employs CCM, street evangelism, and non-KJV Bible translations more than I do. The Lord has blessed him greatly in ministry, to the benefit of others, and to the glory of the Father.

I pray that you will exercise proper judgment, and will not continue to condemn the methods of those you do not know, and do not understand their work. Play whatever kind of music you want to, but glorify God with it! Same for whatever Bible translation you choose to use. For what its worth, I'm a big fan of the ESV.

I believe us to be brothers in Christ,

James A. Miller

David said...

Praise God for all of your comments. I'm not able to pull out everything for all of us here. No, I am not just depending on others articles or books. I do my own study since I was 13 years old. I read the Bible, read lots of pro and contra books, been with many bands, listen to all kind of music, studied cultures in the library and been to some countries, doing interior ministries, some experience in the US, been to Bible collage, never stop studying the Bible, always doing research on almost every topics of Christians life, and basically it is my daily things... I love the book written by Gordon D. Fee & Douglas Stuart, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth. Most of the issues I have posted earlier is just the tips of the ice berg. My English is also not perfect and probably funny. I am not the Mr Right/True, all of us know that, but I hope that my comments will encourage us to read the Bible for all its worth... I remember when King David tried to make things according to his way and the secular way of his day. Later he need to ask what really matter to God. Finally, he followed God's way, and that was revealed and practiced by Moses about 300 years before David's time. Culture and time may change our opinion and practice on doing things, but there are many principles we can't alter...it is called 'eternal relevant'. We always alter the way we worship God and feel good about it, but can that be the way that God wants it to be?

This link may able to help us to look on some things today. I know we all love God and this sharing will help us to love Him more.

http://www.the-highway.com/worship1_Masters.html

In Christ,
David